How much rider+bike weight differences are noticeable on flats?

I’m curious if there’s good research on what differences in effects of weight that people can reliably sense while riding a bike.

I start here with a lot of baseline skepticism, because humans can be really effective at placebo-ing themselves, or attributing differences they actually feel to an easily-measurable thing (e.g., bike weight).

Of course the bike industry has a long history of the tyrrany-of-the-easily-measurable, from Tour mag’s BB stiffness test to “this frame is 7% lighter” (you’re almost certainly not going to notice the 50g in a blind-test riding environment).

I found myself thinking through this again when finally finishing Alex’s review of the new Scott Addict RC (posted nearly 2 months ago). I enjoyed the review and the bike sounds lovely to ride.

But I came away skeptical on this point, where he compares to his 7.3 kg Tarmac SL8:

getting the bike back up to speed takes less effort and happens far quicker, thanks to its lower weight

Taking Alex’s 7.3 kg reported weight for his Tarmac SL8, and doing the math on using the same tires (+130g per wheel as reported in the article), and splitting the difference on whether his SL8 was weighed with or without pedals (so: adding half the weight of top-level pedals to the Addict), let’s say we’re comparing 7.3 kg for the SL8 vs 6.3 kg for the Addict. That’s a 16% weight difference between the bikes, but of course the bike is still a small proportion of the total mass accelerating out of a corner while riding.

If Alex weighs 60 kg kitted out, that means we’re comparing a rider+bike weight of 67.3 kg to 66.3 kg - a difference of 1.5%. Is the feel of accelerating on the Addict RC the result of this ratio (1.02, or 0.98, depending on what’s the denominator), or more likely some other combination of factors? I don’t know Alex’s sensitivity accuracy, but I’d generally put my money on “Alex is mostly noticing factors other than the weight difference.” My skepticism here, if warranted, only makes the Addict sound even impressive; the difference in ride feel while accelerating sounds lovely, and is consistent with the rest of what Alex wrote about the ride quality in this review.

But it brings me back to whether my skepticism is warranted. Generally: it totally is. But that doesn’t mean it is with Alex. There’s a lot of variation in people’s ability to notice differences. Some pros (Mark Cavendish and Cadel Evans come to mind) are reportedly able to notice small differences in fit, without knowing that any differences existed (i.e., mechanic mistake. I’d expect the same is true for ability to notice weight differences. Of course reviewing the-lightest-off-the-shelf-road-bike is not a blind test, but it doesn’t mean that Alex isn’t noticing the 1.5% lower rider+bike weight when he accelerates out of a corner.

There’s also the question of whether “feels faster” equates to “is faster.” Not directly relevant here, and not something Alex made claims about, just a similar issue.

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No answers, but just a follow up question: does it matter (and if so how much) whether or not the weight is “rotating weight” (wheels, tyres etc.)?

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I think Alex is probably talking about how the bike feels. I think the physics would suggest that the bike does not accelerate any faster than a bike is one kilo heavier.

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Weight will definitely have some effect on acceleration (F = ma and all that).

The actual difference in acceleration is minimal, but you would definitely feel it as you move the bike under you. And accelerating the rotating mass of the rim and tire takes twice as much work, so sharp accelerations would be more noticeable.

It’s a truism that rotating weight matters 2x as much as static weight, but the people who actually do the math tend to find that rotating weight has only trivial effects. Although different people do the math differently so it’s hard to come up with an authoritative answer.

Lennard Zinn wrote about how added rotational inertia can be a benefit, since it smooths out pedaling motions, which are inherently choppy.

Here’s GCN video (I know…) on the topic, where they interview a guy from Swissside.

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That’s a very good question and the likely answer is that it’s almost impossible to say. There are so many factors at play that it would need the exact same bike with different frame weights to do a blind test. Entirely possibly with the likes of the Tarmac or the old Emonda where the same frame exists in different carbon lay/ups and therefore weight. But then again, they will possibly also have different stiffness so we still don’t know if we ‘‘feel’’ the lighter bike or the stiffer frame.

I do agree that rotational mass matters way less then people think but what does matter is the depth of your rim and how they are shaped. And your tyres, their pressure…

But you can basically test it yourself by adding/subtracting water to your bottles. When do you start to feel the extra weight of the water? Half a bottle, one full bottle, two full bottles….would be a fun exercise

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I have a two Cannondale Supersix Evo Hi-Mod bikes of the same generation. One is rim brake (2016) and weighs right at 15 lbs with Zipp 303s, while the disc brake bike (2017) weighs right at 16.5 lbs with Enve 4.5s. I personally do not feel the lighter bike accelerates any faster.

One caveat is that the rim brake bike is running TPU tubes at higher pressure, while the disc brake bike is running tubeless at lower pressure. If both of them were running tubeless, maybe I would notice the difference. Since the tubeless “smooths out” the road imperfections, it feels faster to me.

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Not really. Rotational inertia is what I think is being referenced here, and it’s a variable in angular momentum, rotational kinetic energy, and angular acceleration. Often an ideal bike wheel is modeled as a thin ring, and that has a high rotational inertia. No bike wheels have rotational inertias equal to that of a thin ring with the same mass and radius. The rotational inertia for bike wheels is always less than that.

In terms of bikes, the rotational inertias of the individual rotating parts are pretty small. Couple that with those rotating parts having comparatively small rotational velocities (angular velocities), and you end up with something that’s really hard to notice on the bike or with a stopwatch.

Not so sure about the weight difference is significant. Most likely one can feel the fancy one-piece carbon construction of the Syncros wheels. I bet it at least sounds different. It’s a hookless rim, so not ideal for road tires.

The previous Addict RC used an 1 1/4” steerer, most common diameter is 1 1/8”. The new addict uses a 1 1/16” steerer, I don’t know of any other brand using this diameter, perhaps this was necessary to get this extraordinarily low weight. A few months after the new Addict has been released, the integrated handlebars for the previous year model were not available anymore. Afaik they stopped producing them. I wouldn’t buy this bike.

Yeah, the charitable thing is to assume that Alex is talking about “the feel of acceleration.” Probably the causality language of weight-weenie-ism is easy to use, even if you understand those things aren’t true.
Odds are he understands the actual impacts of weight vs feel-of-weigh, even though that sentence I quoted from his review sounds like he doesn’t.

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The operative word in a lot of these posts is “feels”. Feelings =/= data, just as Beliefs =/= knowledge.

There is no doubt that lighter bikes / components “feel” faster, but I have yet to see any data that backs up those feelings (at least on the flats)

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That’s the trouble with trying to convey something subjective: You may be reporting your feelings accurately, but that does not mean your feelings are accurate. :slight_smile:

So many things can influence perceptions of speed, including sound. I’ve read several tests where a rougher ride was interpreted as faster. I’d bet that I could make a bike feel less responsive to some riders by swapping on thick squishy handlebar tape.

Total mass may not be the best number to explain acceleration feel. When you pedal hard standing, you’re essentially pedaling the bike out from under you and using your hands to “hold it back”. Maybe you’re sensing the responsiveness of the bike under you, not the acceleration of the bike + rider?

To use Marc’s example, I think I can feel a difference with two full bottles, but maybe not with one.

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It’s even more complicated than that. The human sensor can be affected by mood, illness, pain, hunger…you name it. Then there’s that bias thing that can’t be ruled out that comes with riding something new or different or something that a rider’s already made assumptions or judgments about. Even being unsure of what a rider detects can drive that rider to draw some conclusion even if one isn’t obvious.

I think it would be a giant pain in the ass to devise a way of doing blind testing with bikes and humans.

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100% Objectively, an object with less mass and with the same force will accelerate more quickly. Can riders feel it? I dunno.. some are more sensitive than others, but maybe just knowing you’re doing less work makes you faster, placebo or no.

With regard to wheel weight, they are basically flywheels. Yes they are harder to accelerate when heavier but they also keep that momentum longer. So you’re still back to accelerating mass uphill. The wheels are part of the system weight.

When it comes to feel and wheels, I can definitely feel the difference more than frame weight because of that flywheel affect. Overall it may not be much slower but I can feel the snappier acceleration. I’ve built dozens and dozens of wheelsets and a really light setup does feel great. Overall though, probably not much slower.

I don’t think the question is whether riders can feel it, since the consensus is that lighter wheels do indeed “feel” like they accelerate faster.

The question is whether the difference is in anyway meaningful, or even offset by other things such as aero.

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On the flat, aero wins all day.

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I have both a 6.4KG (carbon) and a 8.9kg (steel) road bike with nearly identical geometry and measurements : same HA, same trail, TT lenght, stem lenght, bar width, etc). On the flats, once up to speed and in a steady state the feeling mostly differs on two parameters:

  • “flickability” and transverse-plane movements (i.e leaning) induced by my pedaling motion is a touch easier with the 6 kg bike. The “racy” feeling carries on, here.
  • Ride feel thru potholes and broken tarmac is a bit more planted with the 8kg bike, it’s more “point and shoot” and slightly less upset. Although that could be interly due to frame material.
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Yeah, I think people can feel the difference. It’s more that the difference we feel may not be the acceleration (of rider+bike system) itself, and more things like ease-of-plane-tilt. Noticing difference during seated accelerations is more meaningful on actually being able to sense something. Though even there, I’m suspicious of placebo from just knowing you’re on a lighter bike or wheelset.

6 years ago, when I’d been in Seattle for the summer riding a bike with heavier wheels and 32mm GK slick tires, coming back to my road bike with lighter wheels and 25mm tires (yeah, I already knew that they were dumb but was going to ride them until I wore them out) was striking just how much faster the bike felt. But most of it was rocking the bike when standing. Already at that point I understood that this difference in feel didn’t (or barely) corresponded to actual speed or getting-up-to-speed.

It appears nearly everyone on this thread understands that as well, which is a nice change from cycling forums in 2005 or 2010 which was like reading internet reviews of protein powder (“I bulked up so fast with this!” with no methodological confidence).

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“This bike feels quick and lively and makes me smile” and “This bike isn’t actually faster than my other one” can both be true. :slightly_smiling_face:

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